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  #11  
Old 11-29-2012, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by GentleFamily2007 View Post
I think in a healthy marriage where the husband is loving, the day to day life will look nearly identical, maybe the huge life changing things looking differently.
I agree with this. Wise men take their wives' opinions into serious consideration.
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  #12  
Old 11-29-2012, 03:38 PM
WhispyWillow
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I agree with this. Wise men take their wives' opinions into serious consideration.
The one reason that I ere on the Mutual Submission (or MS) side is because not all women have husbands that are respectful, and I think that following it to the logical conclusion puts women in danger. I found Debi Pearls book "Created to be his helpmeet" helpful in many ways, but I was stunned when she made very harsh judgements on women who were in situations where they were being raped in their marriage, and her answer was submission. :O I was heartsick to hear her tell the woman married to a man who sexually abused their children to take them to see him in prison. :O

As a sexual abuse victor (only because God has healed the abuse) I find this shocking and dangerous advice.

This kind of thing makes me sceptic of the idea that the woman is 100% subject to the DH.

That said, God didn't promise we would not be abused while serving him. He didn't promise loving happy marriages, or a life free from physical pain. So it could be that I am allowing my emotions to cloud my logical thinking.

I plan on teaching my kids from now on up how to find someone that treats them with respect, is humble, and above all will follow Christ even if they have to admit that they were wrong. No matter how your marriage functions I think these character issues are vital.
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  #13  
Old 11-29-2012, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by GentleFamily2007 View Post
The one reason that I ere on the Mutual Submission (or MS) side is because not all women have husbands that are respectful, and I think that following it to the logical conclusion puts women in danger. I found Debi Pearls book "Created to be his helpmeet" helpful in many ways, but I was stunned when she made very harsh judgements on women who were in situations where they were being raped in their marriage, and her answer was submission. :O I was heartsick to hear her tell the woman married to a man who sexually abused their children to take them to see him in prison. :O

As a sexual abuse victor (only because God has healed the abuse) I find this shocking and dangerous advice.

This kind of thing makes me sceptic of the idea that the woman is 100% subject to the DH.

That said, God didn't promise we would not be abused while serving him. He didn't promise loving happy marriages, or a life free from physical pain. So it could be that I am allowing my emotions to cloud my logical thinking.

I plan on teaching my kids from now on up how to find someone that treats them with respect, is humble, and above all will follow Christ even if they have to admit that they were wrong. No matter how your marriage functions I think these character issues are vital.
I don't remember the marital rape part, but I also disagreed with Debi Pearl's advice on taking her children to prison to see their abusive father...even if it wasn't sexual in nature like the example in the book.

I am definitely on the wife submission (WS? ) side, but believe Colossians 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. covers a lot of things we can refuse...like obviously sinning, rape, abuse, etc.
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  #14  
Old 11-29-2012, 04:07 PM
WhispyWillow
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I don't remember the marital rape part, but I also disagreed with Debi Pearl's advice on taking her children to prison to see their abusive father...even if it wasn't sexual in nature like the example in the book.

I am definitely on the wife submission (WS? ) side, but believe Colossians 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. covers a lot of things we can refuse...like obviously sinning, rape, abuse, etc.
I agree that interpreting it to mean that the wife should always submit is a very valid interpretation.

If it was not for the cultural background as I understand it, I might end up in the same spot. I think it's a touchy subject, because I think both methods of interpretation have merrit, and serious downfalls.

I think we have to remember that the point is to try to emulate Christ in our marriages to the best of our ability.

In the 4 1/2 years we have been married we have identified as both complementarian (WS) and egalitarian (MS) because DH and I have gone back and forth on how to interpret those verses. We have considered ourselves MS for about 2 years, but honestly we still do things the same way. If we are at an impass we try to figure out where God wants us. Because he has 1 plan for us, and we believe he will lead us in unity, and he won't ask DH to lead to a place I feel is wrong (if those feelings are truly the spirit nudging)

God has always been faithful to reveal himself when we both seek his will. <3
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  #15  
Old 11-29-2012, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by GentleFamily2007 View Post
I am so glad we structure our marriage this way, because I think that the idea that I just need to shut up and deal when I feel God has moved us differently would be seriously damaging to our relationship, and our marriage. I think I would feel horribly unsafe, and unwelcome in our marriage.
I so appreciate both of your posts, Willow, (and everyone else's too!!!! ), but I don't have time right now to really comment more. I will post more later, but I wanted to point out this specific part of your post really quickly because I think it hits the nail on the head of what I'm wanting to understand. It seems that your definition of a "submissive wife" might be very different than mine. So maybe you (or anyone else) could explain how you imagine the above situations (that I mentioned in my OP) would be handled differently in a family with a submissive wife?
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Jesus changes EVERYTHING.
I'm Jenna.
I've been married to Matt for 11 years.
My other blessings are:
DS1, 11 years, 6th grade. DD2, 8 years, 3rd grade. DD2, 5 years, K5. DS2, 3 years. DS3, 14 weeks.
Click here to read my blog. I haven't posted recently, but maybe something I've written will bless your heart. Someday I hope to write again.
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  #16  
Old 11-29-2012, 08:45 PM
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Quoting is much easier on my computer.. (I exclusively post from my phone unless I want to do lots of quotes or it's a big long reply), so sometime tonight or tomorrow I'll come back and post.
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  #17  
Old 11-29-2012, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Jnaly View Post
I so appreciate both of your posts, Willow, (and everyone else's too!!!! ), but I don't have time right now to really comment more. I will post more later, but I wanted to point out this specific part of your post really quickly because I think it hits the nail on the head of what I'm wanting to understand. It seems that your definition of a "submissive wife" might be very different than mine. So maybe you (or anyone else) could explain how you imagine the above situations (that I mentioned in my OP) would be handled differently in a family with a submissive wife?
I thought the same thing. That isn't how submission works in my marriage anyways.
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  #18  
Old 11-29-2012, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by GentleFamily2007 View Post
First I wanted to address the biblical aspect of it.

I believe that as Christians we are all under Christ, and equally so. I do not believe that the Husband is some sort of a "middle" in the authority structure between Christ and his wife. In fact, I think read in context the opposite effect is true, especially if what I have read about the culture is true. Where wives were traded like property, and girls were given to be wives in a similar way that slaves were exchanged. In that context, the idea that the husband was to love his wife sacrificially did the opposite of place her underneath him, but it took her from a place of being underneath, to along side each other. Where in common Christian circles we seem to read that to mean that the wife is taken from a position of equalness and placed into the only submissive party in the relationship, and we completely miss vs 21.

I think we see the same theme played out twice in chapter 6, the first time when Fathers were specifically not to provoke their children to wrath, but the raise them in the fear and admonition of the Lord.. I think here God was giving the child a little higher position of respect, and then again when it spoke of slaves and masters, allowing the slaves a higher amount of respect, because again, the new "hierarchy" in the bible is one of lining ones self underneath those around in. And that goes for everyone in every relationship--Even the master lines himself under the best interest of his slaves.

I think biblically speaking it really comes down to the hermeneutics one uses to interpret scripture. We all like to say that we interpret scripture 100% literally, but really we all come at it with different biases, or interpretation styles. I tend to take a whole bible picture approach, and try to read each verse within the context of the whole book, the culture to which it was written, and what it portrays about the character of God. I think there are downfalls to this. Sometimes it becomes easy to try to rationalize away something that is difficult, rather than conform to a truth scripture teaches. And I do struggle with that, and there are a lot of passages where I have to take a "well, I guess I believe that because its there, and I can't ignore it, but I really don't understand it" approach. (which I actually think all methods of interpretation end up with)
I appreciate your whole post but I wanted to comment on a few things.

I agree with what you said in the last paragraph, that a lot of it comes down to how you interpret the scripture, because honestly people can use the same verses to support two opposite points, and both of them can make absolute sense.

I also agree that the Bible needs to be read in context as a whole and not just as a few verses, so perhaps I need to re-read (and I plan to) this entire book to be sure I have not missed anything. But these are my thoughts right now, from what I have studied in the past.

Maybe I am misunderstanding, but it seems like you are saying that we are only accountable to obey God, and that no other authority matters other than that. Ultimately and technically, this is true, but it's undeniable that God has established authority structures in life, and therefore there ARE "middle men" between us and God, people who(m?) He expects us to submit to because He has placed them in authority over us. If we choose not to submit to those in authority over us (unless the person is going against the will of God as expressed in the Word of God) I believe there will be consequences, on earth certainly, and I believe God will hold us accountable for that as well.

Paul does call husbands to treat their wives completely differently than what was culturally acceptable, but nowhere does he negate the husband's authority over his wife. To me, it seems that the wife submitting to her husband's authority was a given. "Wives, submit to your husbands AS TO THE LORD." The last part of the instruction is the kicker. It was understood that they were to submit, but the whole point was to do it in the same way that they were to submit to the Lord. That was a completely new concept. Submitting willingly and joyfully was not the norm. And for the men, the instruction is to "Love your wife AS CHRIST LOVED THE CHURCH." So the relationship is being compared to Christ's relationship with the church. Christ is certainly the authority of the church. Him loving the church and laying down His life for her, even washing the feet of His followers, did NOT negate His authority over her in any way. In the same way, I don't think Paul's instruction for men to love their wives sacrificially negated their postition of authority at all but rather, called them to a higher standard of leadership.

Again in the last part of that passage, I agree that Paul is calling the church to radically change their way of life in the way they treat and see their slaves and children, but nowhere does it indicate that fathers should no longer have authority over their children, nor that slaves should be set free so they are not under authority. It seems more like God is saying, in a nutshell "Men, you have been given a position of authority, but because you are abusing it like this by treating your wives, slaves and children badly, you are not submitting to the authority set above you, which is God, and you will have to answer for that."
__________________
Jesus changes EVERYTHING.
I'm Jenna.
I've been married to Matt for 11 years.
My other blessings are:
DS1, 11 years, 6th grade. DD2, 8 years, 3rd grade. DD2, 5 years, K5. DS2, 3 years. DS3, 14 weeks.
Click here to read my blog. I haven't posted recently, but maybe something I've written will bless your heart. Someday I hope to write again.
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  #19  
Old 11-30-2012, 12:13 AM
WhispyWillow
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Originally Posted by Jnaly View Post
<snip>
1. Dh has a great job offer but it's three states away and you would have to leave your parents and siblings. You don't want to move. How do you reach a decision?

2. You want to sell your house right now. Dh wants to wait until you can afford to do some work to it to make the value go up. How do you choose what to do?

3. Dh wants to put your kids in public school. You want to homeschool them. Who decides?

<snip>
My impression of a WS marriage for the above mentioned scenarios are such:

1) Dh and Dw would talk it through at length. If they are able to come to an agreement awesome! If not, I assume that the response varies couple by couple. When DH and I were leaning more WS, we would pray through it for a set amount of time, and if we still did not agree, we would do what DH thought was best.

2) I suppose it would depend on the urgency. In this situation, I kindof see the outcome probably being the same, as if the DW wanted to act right now, and DH didn't, then because it would take time to talk things through, she automatically does not get exactly what she wants. I am guessing that the DH would work on the repairs as the conversation was going, and I guess I envision it kindof resolving itself in either marriage situation.

3) Very similar to situation 1. You try to work it out together, and if it just doesn't seem to get together, then DW defers to DH.

I guess my wording "shut up and deal" was pretty inflammatory and perhaps hurtful, and if it was I am sorry.

It was more of a feeeeeeeeeel statement, as I feeeeeeeel things really deeply. To me, if there comes a point where if I don't convince DH I am right then we do something I feeeeeeeeeel is wrong, then it kindof is the same thing as the feeeeeeeeeling of "shutting up and just dealing with it". I hope that makes sense.
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  #20  
Old 11-30-2012, 12:22 AM
WhispyWillow
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I appreciate your whole post but I wanted to comment on a few things.

I agree with what you said in the last paragraph, that a lot of it comes down to how you interpret the scripture, because honestly people can use the same verses to support two opposite points, and both of them can make absolute sense.

I also agree that the Bible needs to be read in context as a whole and not just as a few verses, so perhaps I need to re-read (and I plan to) this entire book to be sure I have not missed anything. But these are my thoughts right now, from what I have studied in the past.

Maybe I am misunderstanding, but it seems like you are saying that we are only accountable to obey God, and that no other authority matters other than that. Ultimately and technically, this is true, but it's undeniable that God has established authority structures in life, and therefore there ARE "middle men" between us and God, people who(m?) He expects us to submit to because He has placed them in authority over us. If we choose not to submit to those in authority over us (unless the person is going against the will of God as expressed in the Word of God) I believe there will be consequences, on earth certainly, and I believe God will hold us accountable for that as well.

Paul does call husbands to treat their wives completely differently than what was culturally acceptable, but nowhere does he negate the husband's authority over his wife. To me, it seems that the wife submitting to her husband's authority was a given. "Wives, submit to your husbands AS TO THE LORD." The last part of the instruction is the kicker. It was understood that they were to submit, but the whole point was to do it in the same way that they were to submit to the Lord. That was a completely new concept. Submitting willingly and joyfully was not the norm. And for the men, the instruction is to "Love your wife AS CHRIST LOVED THE CHURCH." So the relationship is being compared to Christ's relationship with the church. Christ is certainly the authority of the church. Him loving the church and laying down His life for her, even washing the feet of His followers, did NOT negate His authority over her in any way. In the same way, I don't think Paul's instruction for men to love their wives sacrificially negated their postition of authority at all but rather, called them to a higher standard of leadership.

Again in the last part of that passage, I agree that Paul is calling the church to radically change their way of life in the way they treat and see their slaves and children, but nowhere does it indicate that fathers should no longer have authority over their children, nor that slaves should be set free so they are not under authority. It seems more like God is saying, in a nutshell "Men, you have been given a position of authority, but because you are abusing it like this by treating your wives, slaves and children badly, you are not submitting to the authority set above you, which is God, and you will have to answer for that."

I am not really sure that I agree that there is ever a middle man between us and God. :think:

I think that there are totally authority structures in the world.. But I don't believe that the family is different.

That said, I do believe that a WS position is a very valid, and biblically honest position, and this is one place where I really do think we might be *wrong*. However, this is where God seems to have led us at this stage in our marriage, and honestly I really trust Dh and defer to him a lot. The only places where DH has really even deferred to me, is on some things where I have more knowledge, which most likely happens in most WS marriages as well, so I really don't think there is a lot different other than the interpretation issue.

But this issue is one that I go back and forth on. In fact, I am on a much more liberal leaning Christian forum, and I post on there more in favor of a complementarity style, because I am much more conservative than the general feeling there, but I feel like I lean a little more liberal than most people here, so I describe myself as more mutual.. So I guess I sit really in the middle.
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