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  #21  
Old 11-30-2012, 01:16 AM
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Jnaly Jnaly is offline
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Originally Posted by GentleFamily2007 View Post
First off, we do have a leader. God is the leader that is above both of us. We live in plural unity under Christ as the head of our home. I don't think our marriage would be much different if I were the only human that was submissive. One popular misunderstanding I think its that marriages that are mutually submissive is that the wife runs the show. This is not true in our marriage. I really respect my DH, and I submit to him daily. And really, thats all I worry about. I am sure I don't do it perfectly, and neither does he, but it isn't my job to worry about if/when/how he is submissive to me, my job is to submit my desires to him. End of story.
I don't think that a mutually exclusive marriage means that the wife runs the show, but I struggle to see how there can even be a show if no human is running it. You say that Christ is the head, but Christ is the head of our home too, even though we consider DH to be the human head. That's what I'm trying to understand - how it's different, and your posts are helping.

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Originally Posted by GentleFamily2007 View Post
We practice "inaction till unity" meaning that we won't move forward until we are in agreement. In a situation like this, we would talk it out, and if there was not unity, we would table it for a period of time, during which we pray individually for God's leading and seriously consider if "my way" is truly God's best for the family. So far (and we are still fairly newlyweds) we have never had to go beyond this.

If we still can not come to a conclusion, then we do nothing. And yes, it looks like whoever wanted to stay "got their way" but we don't phrase it that way. We really, really, really feel that God will make his path known to us, so that we can both pursue it wholeheartedly. If one of us is not able to pursue it, then we feel like that is God's warning light to us that the answer is not now, or wait.

We both decide together. We may compromise by talking about what it is we don't like about the other option. For instance, if I really don't want my kids taught evolution and history at school, and DH thinks they need sports and music, we will do both. If not, see above.

If our child is at the compulsory age, I would probably defer to Dh, and continue the conversation, or he may very well defer to me, and we will continue the conversation. Its never "over" until we are both on board 100% with the action we have chosen together.
Thanks for this input. It helps a little, and it's actually very similar to how we handle these things.

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Originally Posted by GentleFamily2007 View Post
Like I said above, my "job" is to submit to him, unless I am convinced God has called us otherwise. I also don't believe God will tell me something is right and my husband something else is right. God is not a God of chaos or discord. If we are both walking in the Spirit, his path should be clear to both of us, and sometimes it takes a little bit to become humble enough to realize that God is speaking through your spouse. We have both had those moments when we realize the zeal we are fighting out of is selfish, and not Godly. Also, there are some issues where we have to understand that long term, it really doesn't matter. KWIM?
This is where I see a problem with the mutual submission idea. In a perfect world, where both partners were truly selfless and committed to listening to God's voice and walking in the spirit and only taking action when they are certain God is calling them, this structure would work wonderfully, because there would be no selfish desires getting in the way. But the fact is, there are going to be times that DH's heart is hardened, and He doesn't want to wait for God to speak, and he wants to do what he wants to do, and he doesn't care what anyone else thinks. Or he's going to make a decision on impulse that he thought was spirit-led but later will realize it was emotion driven instead and was a huge mistake. And the same is true for me of course. To me, it seems as if you are saying the wife should submit to her husband as long as he is following God's guiding, but if he isn't, she should not submit to his leadership. But the Bible doesn't seem to make any kind of allowance for that, just as He doesn't instruct husbands to love their wives "if she is submitting to your authority" or for children to obey their parents "if your parents are not provoking you to anger" or to love your neighbor "if your neighbor is loving you". What about women who are married to non-believers? Those husbands are unlikely to believe in godly MS. What are they to do? What I mean is, there has to be a standard. "This is how men are supposed to act as husbands. This is how wives are supposed to act. It doesn't matter the circumstances." If the standards can be changed based on different circumstances, they are not true standards. I'm getting tired; I may have to come back to this point later when I can think more clearly because I don't think I'm coming across very well.

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Originally Posted by GentleFamily2007 View Post
Another aspect in some of those "littler things" is taking into account who cares more, who has researched more, and who has a better knowledge to make that decision..

Little tiny things like him asking me to do the dishes, or me asking him to start a load of laundry are always submitted to by both of us..

I hope that helps a little.
Thanks for your examples about the little ways MS looks for you. I guess in the case of the circumcision, you see it as DH submitting to your decision; I see it as DH delegating the authority to make that decision to you because he trusted your judgement on it. Those two views are similar but different, I think.

I'll write more tomorrow. zzzzzzzzzz

PS Why don't we have a sleeping smiley???
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  #22  
Old 12-01-2012, 07:25 AM
maryrose maryrose is offline
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Originally Posted by mom_of_3_blessings View Post
It saddens me when I hear Godly men say - I am the head and leader and that's it end of discussion!!!

Then I thank God that in our house things don't run like that. I don't critize or judge but, not a way of life I would like to live.
exactly my thoughts
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  #23  
Old 12-01-2012, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Jnaly View Post
I don't think that a mutually exclusive marriage means that the wife runs the show, but I struggle to see how there can even be a show if no human is running it. You say that Christ is the head, but Christ is the head of our home too, even though we consider DH to be the human head. That's what I'm trying to understand - how it's different, and your posts are helping.


This is where I see a problem with the mutual submission idea. In a perfect world, where both partners were truly selfless and committed to listening to God's voice and walking in the spirit and only taking action when they are certain God is calling them, this structure would work wonderfully, because there would be no selfish desires getting in the way. But the fact is, there are going to be times that DH's heart is hardened, and He doesn't want to wait for God to speak, and he wants to do what he wants to do, and he doesn't care what anyone else thinks. Or he's going to make a decision on impulse that he thought was spirit-led but later will realize it was emotion driven instead and was a huge mistake. And the same is true for me of course. To me, it seems as if you are saying the wife should submit to her husband as long as he is following God's guiding, but if he isn't, she should not submit to his leadership. But the Bible doesn't seem to make any kind of allowance for that, just as He doesn't instruct husbands to love their wives "if she is submitting to your authority" or for children to obey their parents "if your parents are not provoking you to anger" or to love your neighbor "if your neighbor is loving you". What about women who are married to non-believers? Those husbands are unlikely to believe in godly MS. What are they to do? What I mean is, there has to be a standard. "This is how men are supposed to act as husbands. This is how wives are supposed to act. It doesn't matter the circumstances." If the standards can be changed based on different circumstances, they are not true standards. I'm getting tired; I may have to come back to this point later when I can think more clearly because I don't think I'm coming across very well.


Thanks for your examples about the little ways MS looks for you. I guess in the case of the circumcision, you see it as DH submitting to your decision; I see it as DH delegating the authority to make that decision to you because he trusted your judgement on it. Those two views are similar but different, I think.
My thoughts exactly.
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  #24  
Old 12-02-2012, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Jnaly View Post
...I'll write more tomorrow. zzzzzzzzzz

PS Why don't we have a sleeping smiley???
One sleeping smiley coming up: Click the image to open in full size.



This has been an interesting discussion. I have no idea what label to give the submission of my marriage b/c it seems to be a little bit of all the views shared. And depending on the topic or seasons of our lives it seems like the submission label has varied.
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  #25  
Old 12-27-2012, 11:01 AM
SAHMwifeNmama SAHMwifeNmama is offline
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This is an intruiguing discussion and a concept I'm very much struggling with. I got on the 'WS' bandwagon with my marriage. Now I consider myself complementarian, but not WoS. Throughout this discussion I've seen an example of a moving/selling house situation. This is kind of where DH and I are at, except we disagree on more than that including matters of faith and child-rearing. I married DH and fully expected that DH knew what he was doing in just about everything and went along with it. But in doing so, I'm losing my identity and my personal growth is stunted to be quite honest. As someone said, in an ideal world God would lead both of us to the same answer/decision/etc. But that doesn't always happen. Also if God has gifted a woman in understanding of certain areas and her husband lacks in that area, I think it's okay for the husband to listen carefully to and very much consider what she is saying. Sometimes 'inaction til unity' is not always feasible because sometimes decisions need to be made in a time frame. WoS makes it sound like the husband knows it all and this just isnt the case. It's not like decisions are just a 'my way or your way' thing, decisions usually affect the whole family including children. So for a wife to let some things go and defer everything to DH in the case of disagreements, I dont find it healthy if children's well being or the family as a whole is going to suffer for it. Most of us here are Christian and probably have Christians husbands who are definitely well-meaing, but even so it doesnt mean they have all the right answers.
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  #26  
Old 12-27-2012, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Jnaly View Post
I don't think that a mutually exclusive marriage means that the wife runs the show, but I struggle to see how there can even be a show if no human is running it. You say that Christ is the head, but Christ is the head of our home too, even though we consider DH to be the human head. That's what I'm trying to understand - how it's different, and your posts are helping.
I would say we generally run it together. We don't act in ways that we have not both decided were okay. (Well, in big things anyways. My DH is away from home lots of the time, and I handle the money, so I make calls on dozens of things without consulting him, and he does the same while he is gone. We have a budget and stick to it, but there are parenting decisions, involvement in activities ect that I just do because who knows when/if he is going to be home.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jnaly View Post
This is where I see a problem with the mutual submission idea. In a perfect world, where both partners were truly selfless and committed to listening to God's voice and walking in the spirit and only taking action when they are certain God is calling them, this structure would work wonderfully, because there would be no selfish desires getting in the way. But the fact is, there are going to be times that DH's heart is hardened, and He doesn't want to wait for God to speak, and he wants to do what he wants to do, and he doesn't care what anyone else thinks. Or he's going to make a decision on impulse that he thought was spirit-led but later will realize it was emotion driven instead and was a huge mistake. And the same is true for me of course. To me, it seems as if you are saying the wife should submit to her husband as long as he is following God's guiding, but if he isn't, she should not submit to his leadership. But the Bible doesn't seem to make any kind of allowance for that, just as He doesn't instruct husbands to love their wives "if she is submitting to your authority" or for children to obey their parents "if your parents are not provoking you to anger" or to love your neighbor "if your neighbor is loving you". What about women who are married to non-believers? Those husbands are unlikely to believe in godly MS. What are they to do? What I mean is, there has to be a standard. "This is how men are supposed to act as husbands. This is how wives are supposed to act. It doesn't matter the circumstances." If the standards can be changed based on different circumstances, they are not true standards. I'm getting tired; I may have to come back to this point later when I can think more clearly because I don't think I'm coming across very well.
Its the same way in a wifely submission marriage. Regardless of how your marriage is structured, it is set up so that when both people are in unity before God it runs efficiently. If the DH hardens his heart and decides to neglect her needs, and chooses not to love her, her responsibility to him doesn't change. She still has to submit, even if he is not reasonable. If she refuses to follow his leadership, he is still supposed to take the lead, but it doesn't work well when people don't follow. A marriage is set up based on everyone operating selflessly, regardless of who submits/leads ect.

In a MS marriage its the same way. If DH decides to run all over me, and refuses to work with me, its still my job to work with him to the best of my ability. Chances are it won't work well, and will cause friction and disunity. But that doesn't make the premise wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jnaly View Post
Thanks for your examples about the little ways MS looks for you. I guess in the case of the circumcision, you see it as DH submitting to your decision; I see it as DH delegating the authority to make that decision to you because he trusted your judgement on it. Those two views are similar but different, I think.

I'll write more tomorrow. zzzzzzzzzz

PS Why don't we have a sleeping smiley???
The word submit means to align yourself under another person and show them deference. In the circumcision case, DH submitted what he wanted to see happen to me.

Recently, there was a large thing that came up, where even though I disagreed with him, as we prayed I felt God leading me to follow his lead. I was a bit apprehensive, but it turned out well. I decided to make his preference my preference.. And that is what submission is. When 2 people abandon "my way" and work towards "our way" and understand that the two sometimes look different. Its a really efficient system when both people are seeking Christ, and it falls apart when one or both of them get stuck on the "my way" train.

There are some things that I would not submit on, and there are some things he will not.

I will not ever spank my children. He can do so, he is their father, and I am not able to control his interactions with them any more than he can mine, but this is one area where if he told me to spank, I would refuse. It would be a sin for me to strike another person no matter how big/small they are. (not saying spanking is sin, but it is for me.)

I would not consent to a threesome, watching porn, or other sexual perversions, (and neither would he.)

He is unwilling to be outside of a church body (as am I) and would not submit to my wishes if I choose to quit going to church, and he would continue to take our children.

Again, I think it ultimately boils down to control. I can't control how he chooses to discipline our kids, and while we definitely talk it through, I would never, ever step between him and the boys, even if he were to spank them. He is their father in the same way that I am their mother. I can't control his behavior, attitudes, sin issues ect.

He can not force me to attend church. (Well, physically he probably could) It would be breaking a boundary. But he does not have to partake in that sin with me, and he does not have to allow me to have the final say in that scenario.

I have to trust that he is seeking Christ, and will act accordingly.. I will bring things up to him, and encourage him if I feel like he is not seeking Christ, but beyond that, I am only accountable to work with him in submission to the best of my ability while always being in submission to Christ.

The best that either of us can do is seek Christ in our own life, and strive to seek him together.

I feel like I made that more complicated than what it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAHMwifeNmama View Post
This is an intruiguing discussion and a concept I'm very much struggling with. I got on the 'WS' bandwagon with my marriage. Now I consider myself complementarian, but not WoS. Throughout this discussion I've seen an example of a moving/selling house situation. This is kind of where DH and I are at, except we disagree on more than that including matters of faith and child-rearing. I married DH and fully expected that DH knew what he was doing in just about everything and went along with it. But in doing so, I'm losing my identity and my personal growth is stunted to be quite honest. As someone said, in an ideal world God would lead both of us to the same answer/decision/etc. But that doesn't always happen. Also if God has gifted a woman in understanding of certain areas and her husband lacks in that area, I think it's okay for the husband to listen carefully to and very much consider what she is saying. Sometimes 'inaction til unity' is not always feasible because sometimes decisions need to be made in a time frame. WoS makes it sound like the husband knows it all and this just isnt the case. It's not like decisions are just a 'my way or your way' thing, decisions usually affect the whole family including children. So for a wife to let some things go and defer everything to DH in the case of disagreements, I dont find it healthy if children's well being or the family as a whole is going to suffer for it. Most of us here are Christian and probably have Christians husbands who are definitely well-meaing, but even so it doesnt mean they have all the right answers.
This is hard. (hug) and you know me from elsewhere, and know that I am very sympathetic towards the complementarian side. As a woman, I don't think it really matters what I identify as, since my job is the same in both cases, but I can understand how hard it would be to have DH not agree with the things I find so, so important, such as discipline/faith/selling a house.

I have never faced that in my marriage, so I honestly can't speak to how that would play out, but I wanted to offer hugs. and prayers.
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  #27  
Old 12-27-2012, 05:18 PM
SAHMwifeNmama SAHMwifeNmama is offline
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Thanks GentleFamily. Yeah, I'm not big on terms anymore whether its marriage dynamic or denomination.
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