Do you believe in the doctrine of Eternal Security? Once you confess Christ, are you saved even if you wander away for a time? I would be interested in other peoples thoughts on this, for a very personal reason. I've heard it taught both ways.

Here's what I'm struggling with. My twenty-one year old son asked Jesus into his heart when he was about five years old. He did many things that looked like living the Christian life, up through high school. In college he has completely fallen away and self-identifies as a Nihilistic Agnostic with pagan leanings. He is anti-christianity to the point I can't talk to him any more. Was that childhood confession valid? Well, of curse only God knows the heart. But how can this angry, confused young man still be one of God's children. If he dies in his current condition, how can God take him to heaven? I want to believe God is still watching overhim. I pray for him every day. But it just seems he has so rejected God and Jesus to the point he can't be saved.

I cant really answer that i dont know .

Here is my thinking ...I did not really accept Jesus till i was 20 years old .If i had died before then would i have been saved ?I think Jesus would have knew that i was going to accept him in the future and therefore he would have let me in to heaven .Am sure about that ? no !

I dont how it works but i like to believe that God know our future and knows how we will leave our future lives , therefore i like to think that even if someone has not accepted Jesus in to their heart in the past but will in the future god will know and he will judge on that .

That is only my opinion and im not even certain about it .

Yes i believe when your son accepted Jesus at five years old he was open and meant it but we all wander off the path from time to time .I often wonder if the way i am raising my children will really impact on them later in life , i have seen so many christian children leave god and i myself did not have a strong faith growing up .


Keep praying for help and give him space , Jesus is in his heart always and it is up to him to accept him back in to his life .:praying::praying::hug:

Again this is only my own opinion .

I think we need to be really careful when we say things like "I like to think God. . . " We need to look at the scriptures to see what it really says and not "create" a God to fit what we would like.

I do believe in eternal security because that is what the Bible preaches. In your son's case, one would have to question whether or not it was a true "conversion". I'm not sure a 5 year old understands completely when they accept Christ. My girls have accepted Christ around that age as well and I can't say for sure if they are truly saved or not. Others tell me they are, but then again I did that young as well and I don't think I was truly saved until college.

I think all you can do is to continue to pray for your son and ask God to maybe show you a sign of his salvation or to give you peace or something along those lines.

The reason i said "i like to think "is because i dont know the answer , it is something i must try to study .That is just what i "think " but off course it is not fact because as i said in the post i cant answer because i dont really know it is just my own opinion which will likely change when i learn more about it .

In my opinion I don't believe in the once saved always saved because the bible tells us we have to guard our salvation. In your sons case like Darcy said I am not sure if he really understood was it means to ask Jesus to come into your heart. My daugther accepted Jesus into her heart at 8 and even then I am not sure she fully understands.

All you can do is keep your son in prayer. The words says to instruct a child in the ways of the Lord and when he gets older he shall not depart. I was born and raised in the Lord and I went astray but I had enough word in me to bring me back home. I pray the same for your son.

I think we need to be really careful when we say things like "I like to think God. . . " We need to look at the scriptures to see what it really says and not "create" a God to fit what we would like.

I do believe in eternal security because that is what the Bible preaches. In your son's case, one would have to question whether or not it was a true "conversion". I'm not sure a 5 year old understands completely when they accept Christ. My girls have accepted Christ around that age as well and I can't say for sure if they are truly saved or not. Others tell me they are, but then again I did that young as well and I don't think I was truly saved until college.

I think all you can do is to continue to pray for your son and ask God to maybe show you a sign of his salvation or to give you peace or something along those lines.

In my opinion I don't believe in the once saved always saved because the bible tells us we have to guard our salvation. In your sons case like Darcy said I am not sure if he really understood was it means to ask Jesus to come into your heart. My daugther accepted Jesus into her heart at 8 and even then I am not sure she fully understands.

All you can do is keep your son in prayer. The words says to instruct a child in the ways of the Lord and when he gets older he shall not depart. I was born and raised in the Lord and I went astray but I had enough word in me to bring me back home. I pray the same for your son.

I agree with these two posts. I don't think a 5yr old really understands salvation. but i don't know.
To judge someone's salvation is to judge your own. i can only know what is in my own heart.
However, if your son is professing that he is pegan and anti-Christian, then i would think he was not truly saved. again, i would not want to judge his salvation...that's in God's hands. Just keep him in prayer. :hug:

I agree with these two posts. I don't think a 5yr old really understands salvation. but i don't know.
To judge someone's salvation is to judge your own. i can only know what is in my own heart.
However, if your son is professing that he is pegan and anti-Christian, then i would think he was not truly saved. again, i would not want to judge his salvation...that's in God's hands. Just keep him in prayer. :hug:

I don't think it is judging. The bible clearly states that by our fruits we shall be known.

I believe in a Saved person's Assurance of Salvation :) I also think that if a Christian doesn't produce any fruit, s/he was never Saved in the first place. I'm not talking about "falling away", I think people can leave God then come back the whole time being Saved.

It's a confusing subject...but I do believe once someone truely calls on Jesus that s/he is always a child of God :)

Okay. I knew I was opening a can of worms here. I've heard it all before. He did seem to be "producing fruit" when he was younger. But too much of his experience of "Christian" things was in a very legalistic Christian school. And at some pont, when he couldn't live up to their standards, he decided he wasn't a Christian, but he still believed in God and Jesus and salvation by grace. "Christians" must be some special, holy order that he hadn't joined. I sometimes wonder if he gets so testy because he is convicted. There is a part of him still struggling to find something that makes sense to him intellectually that he can beieve in. Meeting agnostic, gay, theology students who could debunk the Bible certainly didn't help him any. College is a strange and terrifying place if your faith isn't strong.

You will get different opinions on this subject, that's just how it is. We all just have to agree to disagree on this one. You're son is probably at a point in his life that he is searching for what he truly believes in. You could be right in the fact that he is convicted on some things, thus becoming testy about them. He could be trying to sort through all the things he was taught growing up and what he has been exposed to in the college world. It could be this is something he possibly needs to go through to figure out what he is going to take ownership of. As his mother, you should continue to pray for him on a regular basis and if the opportunity comes up, talk to him about things if he is willing. I would be very careful about being too "pushy" as that may turn him off and he may see it as you being judgemental of him. A person's faith needs to be strong to survive in this world, I think, not just in college. I will be praying for your son. :praying::praying::hug:

You will get different opinions on this subject, that's just how it is. We all just have to agree to disagree on this one. You're son is probably at a point in his life that he is searching for what he truly believes in. You could be right in the fact that he is convicted on some things, thus becoming testy about them. He could be trying to sort through all the things he was taught growing up and what he has been exposed to in the college world. It could be this is something he possibly needs to go through to figure out what he is going to take ownership of. As his mother, you should continue to pray for him on a regular basis and if the opportunity comes up, talk to him about things if he is willing. I would be very careful about being too "pushy" as that may turn him off and he may see it as you being judgemental of him. A person's faith needs to be strong to survive in this world, I think, not just in college. I will be praying for your son. :praying::praying::hug:
I agree!

My oldest has also walked away from Christ.

It seems like she still believes but is not living it. She will call me to pray for someone or to pray for her, so if she did not believe why would she ask for prayer?

LP, i am sorry for what you are going through...I do understand it is a big concern!!
I prayed for your son.

I agree with Lmy911, it is not just college, it is the world and everywhere that is scary and hard.

Isaiah 7:9b....."If you will not believe, surely you shall not be established" NKJ

other translations say something like..... if you do not stand strong in your faith, you will not stand.....{ not an actual quote, but going by memory.}

Personally, I believe a person who is saved has eternal security. Not because of what the person does or does not do, but because God's love is unconditional.

I would like to recommend a book titled "Eternal Security" by Charles Stanley. I think it's worth reading no matter what your view on this topic is.

I'm kind of a logically-minded person, and it has always seemed to me that it's possible to change your mind about being a Christian - if we're free to become Christians then we're free to turn around and become non-Christians, maybe another religion or some other way of thinking. Not that we should do that, but we have free will. Someone said to me a while back though that she didn't think anyone who'd truly been saved and known God could really turn away from him forever. My opinion doesn't sound good for your son but God knows his heart, and I'm sure you've done your best with him to help him know the Lord. Keep praying for him and know that in the end his choice is his own.

Do you believe in the doctrine of Eternal Security? Once you confess Christ, are you saved even if you wander away for a time? I would be interested in other peoples thoughts on this, for a very personal reason. I've heard it taught both ways.

Here's what I'm struggling with. My twenty-one year old son asked Jesus into his heart when he was about five years old. He did many things that looked like living the Christian life, up through high school. In college he has completely fallen away and self-identifies as a Nihilistic Agnostic with pagan leanings. He is anti-christianity to the point I can't talk to him any more. Was that childhood confession valid? Well, of curse only God knows the heart. But how can this angry, confused young man still be one of God's children. If he dies in his current condition, how can God take him to heaven? I want to believe God is still watching overhim. I pray for him every day. But it just seems he has so rejected God and Jesus to the point he can't be saved.

I found this -
http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Promises/Promises.Our.Children.html

Promises for our children, maybe it would help to pray some of these scriptures or meditate on them to remind yourself of the promises of God. I pray that your son like the prodigal son will return with a stronger love for the Lord. And God is still watching him. He loves him more than you do. Keep praying mom! :hug:

Hello, my name is GrandmaTami, I am new to your forum.

It seems to me that there are two separate questions...

#1 Wondering if someone is saved or not
#2 Eternal security

#1. Can we actually know if someone is saved or not? No. Can we know whether or not they are producing the fruit of repentance? Yes. But is everyone who does good saved? No Is everyone who doesn't do good, unsaved? No.

We do not know but God does and that is good enough. We need to examine our own claims to love the Lord not anyone else's.

But I will say this.... millions and millions of people claim to be Christians, the real question that needs to be answered is not, "Are you a Christian?" but.... "Do you love the Lord with all your heart and desire to please Him in all that you do?"

John 14:15
"If you love me, you will obey what I command.


John 14:21
Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."


John 14:23
Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

1 John 5: 3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome

(Remember while obedience does not prove love, love does result in obedience or a sincere desire to obey and not grieve the God you love.)

God wants us to examine our claim to love Him by examing the choices we make to the big and small things that come into our day.

Let's say your someone irritates you or doesn't treat you or your loved ones how you want to be treated (in-law, spouse, child, co-worker, neighbor, clerk, person on the phone, etc) - you now have choices to make if you love the Lord and desire to please Him.

Your natural response (the pattern of this world) might be to have angry thoughts or speak unkind words (even hand motions or body language ) think of ways to return evil for evil, gossip, be harsh, impatient, hold a grudge, ...

But God's word tells us.

Romans 12 : 1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

We are transformed when we think... How can I respond in a way that is pleasing to my God whom I love with all my heart. And scripture tells us how...

Psalm 19:14 May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.

1 Peter 3:9Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing.

Romans 12:14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.

Ephesians 4:29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.

Ephesians 4: 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

Now, keep an eye on your daily choices and how you respond to the little trials that come your way... do you desire to please the Lord or conform to the pattern of this world and respond according to your sinful nature.

#2. Eternal security is another point

(NIV) Ephesians 2: 1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Our salvation is not about what we do, it is about God and what He does for us. the key is verse 8 - 9 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

Since our salvation is not about what we do then our security in our salvation must follow suit. It must be based on the one who saved us and thankfully not the one who was saved! It is not about our abilities it is about His power and love. We are secure because of who He is... all powerful, loving, all knowing, wise, able, the beginning and the end, ... our security is to His glory! Again it is not about our worthiness or faithfulness, it is about His faithfulness. Our salvation brings us peace with God, our security brings us the peace of God. It is all about Gods power, mercy and grace. Praise God!!

John 10 : 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

Ephesians 1: 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

2Corinthians 1 : 21Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

It is about our heart. God knows our heart, He knows if we are serious. He knows those who are just having an emotional experience or just speaking words and whose hearts are not truly going to be given to Him. He knows we will not be perfect. We will sin. Just like in any relationship God knows that our love has to be nurtured and will grow. Like when you get married, you love your spouse more as each year goes by. It is the same with us and the Lord, as our relationship grows so does our love!

1 Peter 1: 3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

Position and condition are important to remember. For example, your newborn falls into a mud puddle. You pick her up in your arms. Her "position" is safe in your arms. Her "condition" is covered in mud in need of a bath.

Salvation... our position is saved, a child of God. Salvation is an event - called justification.

Our condition is, we are still dealing with sinful tendencies and God is doing a maturing work in us! This is a process. We do not become perfect in our "condition" until we go to heaven! This process is called sanctification.

Philippians 1: 6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Yeah God! It is all about Him, to His glory and honor!

:thumbs: Great answer! But what about people who really change their minds and don't want to be Christians any more, and never turn back to it? I find it hard to believe they're still sealed for God and have an inheritance in heaven and so on. Or were all those people really never true Christians in the first place? I'm sure there must be some who were sincere at the time and were saved but changed their minds later - misguidedly, but sincere in their new beliefs.

:thumbs: Great answer! But what about people who really change their minds and don't want to be Christians any more, and never turn back to it? I find it hard to believe they're still sealed for God and have an inheritance in heaven and so on. Or were all those people really never true Christians in the first place? I'm sure there must be some who were sincere at the time and were saved but changed their minds later - misguidedly, but sincere in their new beliefs.

This again is where we delight in how amazing our God is. Since He is all knowing He knows their heart completely. He knows if it is a love that will not last. That person is not His and is not sealed. I believe they were very sincere in their own minds... It is such a delight to know that our all knowing God truly knows everything. There is never a time when He hops off His throne in surprise and says... "What, you changed your mind? I totally didn't see that coming!" How awful that would be if God was ever taken by surprise.

Mark 4: 3"Listen! A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.

Verse 5 is about this type of person who looks like a Christian for a while but then their real heart comes through and they turn away.

I have seen it both ways... someone looked like a believer, turned away and then came back. And someone who looked like a believer turned away and stayed away. But still only God really knows their hearts.

It comes down to the fact that God knows their hearts, He never wonders. He is never taken by surprise. How awesome is our God!!

1 Corinthians 4: 3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.

Blessings!

Romans 12 : 1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

We are transformed when we think... How can I respond in a way that is pleasing to my God whom I love with all my heart. And scripture tells us how...

Psalm 19:14 May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.

1 Peter 3:9Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing.

Romans 12:14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.

Ephesians 4:29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.

Ephesians 4: 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.


boy did i need to hear this! thanks for sharing these verses.

This again is where we delight in how amazing our God is. Since He is all knowing He knows their heart completely. He knows if it is a love that will not last. That person is not His and is not sealed. I believe they were very sincere in their own minds... It is such a delight to know that our all knowing God truly knows everything. There is never a time when He hops off His throne in surprise and says... "What, you changed your mind? I totally didn't see that coming!" How awful that would be if God was ever taken by surprise.

Mark 4: 3"Listen! A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.

Verse 5 is about this type of person who looks like a Christian for a while but then their real heart comes through and they turn away.

I have seen it both ways... someone looked like a believer, turned away and then came back. And someone who looked like a believer turned away and stayed away. But still only God really knows their hearts.

It comes down to the fact that God knows their hearts, He never wonders. He is never taken by surprise. How awesome is our God!!

1 Corinthians 4: 3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.

Blessings!

That sounds very true. I wasn't implying though that God is taken by surprise - only that he respects our choices. Ezekiel 33:12-20 talks about how if we turn from wickedness to righteousness we'll be saved, but if we turn from righteousness to wickedness we'll be lost.

I believe that once someone opens their heart to Jesus and follows Him and then falls down, there will be a time when they will get back up. It happened to me. I learned the way of the world and beat myself up pretty good. I was so far in the darkness that only the Light of the Lord could penetrate it. It made my desire even stronger, so much so that I could never turn back to that darkness again. The best you can do is have faith in the Lord, trust in Him that He has everything under control. Don't ever worry or have fears or doubts, those three destroy faith. Pray for him and let God know that you trust Him. I went through this with my daughter for many years and I never doubted God.